Gloucester Planning Board, Oct. 1, 2026

City Hall - Council Chambers: Okay, hi everybody, I want to call the… Reporting in progress. Sorry about that. Planning Board Housing Subcommittee meeting of October 1st to order. City Hall - Council Chambers: We have in the room, we have Sean Henry. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Henry. I'm Jane Remsen, the chair of the Subcommittee and the vice chair of the Planning Board. We have Beverly Bookin. We have Greg Cadematori. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): our city planner, and we have Eric Hinderly, our staff planner. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Okay, here we are. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And… First thing we're going to do is minutes. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I know. No, they were helpful.

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Some while ago. City Hall - Council Chambers: Sure.

Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So the first set of minutes is April 30th. City Hall - Council Chambers: Let's see who's there. And it was Jane and… Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Beverly and David Burton. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Okay. And I had no comments on those minutes. Okay. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So I will accept a motion to approve the minutes of April 30.th I second. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): We have to move first. Oh, I move. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): You could second. Second. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Okay. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): All in favor? Aye. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Do you have to take a roll? Nope, nope, because we're all… Yeah, we're all here. Somebody is remote, or we're all remote. Great.

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): efficiently on her. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Okay, Alicia will appreciate this. Okay, we're all 3 here. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I think if you go down the it says Subcommittee members discussed budgetary changes. I think maybe challenges is what we meant. Budgetary being. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): For, oh yeah, for tree things. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yes. Oh, okay. Yes. From the city's perspective. Yes. Yes. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Other than that, I had no comments.

Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Any one of you can make a motion to approve. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Well, I will accept a motion to approve the minutes of May 14th, 2027. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): No second. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): All in favor? Aye. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yes.

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I had no comments on May 21st. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Although it is nice to have these because this is the last. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Discussion we had about trees. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So It's useful. City Hall - Council Chambers: 3, 4. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): It is normal that maybe today we'll just have an update on that. Well, there's no real update. It's just we want to get our head. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So I will accept a motion to approve the minutes of May 21, 2026. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I'll make them right now. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): all in favor.

Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): All right, let's work. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): That was the easy stuff. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So I don't know what order, oh, the continued discussion of the draft open space residential development ordinance. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I'm trying to log in. It says I have authentication error. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So… This is a… where we left off conversation really just to Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): remind ourselves where we were and what we want to do next. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And I think I said this to Beverly, the. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): We saw you two days ago, that…

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): We are having an identity crisis when it comes to this. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Ordinance. Sorry. And… we… The identity crisis is between housing production and protecting open land. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So I don't really know where to go from here. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I think… I think when we were… before we… Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Went back to the planning board and had the presentation at the planning board and took public comment on the draft. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Even in the development, when we started moving into the direction of looking at the.

Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I think… Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Going back to a proof plan creates one more friction point. City Hall - Council Chambers: And ultimately, Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): point of appeal. We've heard that in the past with the few. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Cluster developments have gone through, but we're… people say Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): They couldn't get this many conventionally. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): My whole point, going back to using this as a tool to increase housing production, is that we've Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Ignore that group plan, what a normal subdivision would be.

Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): and I would think, especially in those larger districts. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): We ignore that underlying zoning about. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): What number you'd come up with with the underlying zoning. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): and craft the Osrd ordinance. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): to promote small compact Higher density development in those areas. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): completely removed from the underlying requirements. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): It's a tough one. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): do. It's almost… the kind of… Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Essentially, what you're doing is spot zoning because you're essentially upzoning a particular

Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): property that had been identified as as an appropriate. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): because every property owner in the area can do it if they can make it work right? You're saying. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): and are aiding. If you're doing an Osrd development. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): This is what you have to work with right? And again, going back to your point of the Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): particularly through Ra. The the Limiting capacity is going to be the realistic. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): carrying capacity of any septic system they're able to build there, right? Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Well, depending on where it is, again, if you… if you're… but let's say those areas that are difficult to…

Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): develop. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Right, but it's always going to be… Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): a septic issue. If it's not on sewer, it's going to come down to what the septic capacity is. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yeah, but then, so what neighbors are gonna argue is that you're, you, it, it isn't spot zoning 'cause you haven't changed zoning, but you have changed the development for somebody that's coming in versus someone who on either side or, and that's, you know, the neighbors say that, you know, that that density's unacceptable and that, you know what I'm saying? I, but my guess is. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Again, it's been a while since we looked at Whether our… how many compliant?

Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): existing lots we have in R8, but I imagine it probably follows to a great degree the non-compliance issues we have throughout. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): all of our districts, that not every existing Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): home currently in our 80s on 80,000 square foot lot. There's gonna be, I would guess. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I'm quite a number that are… that are smaller. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Oh. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So again, if we go back to the the questions that were raised at the beginning. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And again, I think both you and Jane.

City Hall - Council Chambers: Came to the same conclusion, that you know. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): following the Housing Compass Plan, knowing we're in a housing crisis. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): The work we do on zoning should be. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): focus predominantly on coming up with ways of increasing our housing stock. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And I think the way to do that, and those outlying larger districts. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): is to… move beyond the fact that our current zoning is restricted to Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): a single family home on an 80,000 square foot lot, and look at more creative ways to again going back to the R. 3. Discard the

Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): 3A discussion, and I think it came up by one of the speakers the other night. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): don't focus so much on on downtown redevelopment. Take a look elsewhere in the city. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And if we… Again, focus. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): the OSRD, not on what the underlying zoning is, but on what we'd like to see in those districts. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): and present that as an alternative to a landowner property owner developer. How they want to Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): proceed with that. If they, if they find it attractive to use, they can actually find Awesome.

Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): parcels in the city that that we work with. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): done. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): we incentivize. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): that process. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): It's 40A. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): A. Yeah, A. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): 40A. Yeah, isn't there a 40A? 40A is the whole thing? Yeah. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): That's just how… A community can adopt zoning and there's certain. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Basically, the framework for local. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): zone. And 40R and 40S and 40Y are all provisions of it. Those are all.

Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Chapter. Those are all part of chapter. They're all separate chapters. Oh, they're all separate chapters. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yeah. So 40, so 48 just says we can make our own zoning. So the, so the. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): The why and those are like our section five. Okay. As you deal with a special issue. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So two comments on it. First of all, isn't it the RF 80 zone where you can build a duplex by ride, but the minimum lot size is still 80? No, we, we. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Well, we did do that. So every lot in every district, if it complies with the minimum standards for a single family, it also complies with the standards for a reservation.

Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Okay, so to be honest… Except for… Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Firm one. Yes. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): RCD warning. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Oh, it was RC40? Yeah. Oh, OK. I knew there was one where it was moot because the minimum lot size was the same as the minimum lot size for one, right, or something? No, it was that. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Don't allow it to your family. Oh, gotcha. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And where is the 40? Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): RC40 is eastern point and then sections of the coast down towards. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So one of the ways that you look for your smaller units is through 80 years. And we don't have this problem right?

Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): to the degree that people are willing to do adus on their property. Yeah, well, they can only do a single adu. But Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): It's still a source of Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): of housing. We shouldn't underestimate it, because in Oregon, where ADUs have been allowed by right in single-family zooms since the 1990s, it's already 7, 8, 9% of the housing stock. Correct. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): But We, we focus on, we use the Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): One of the recommendations came from the feedback, and reduce the overall parcel size down to 3 acres, right? So, you know, 3 acres in R80, you can do

Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): 3 single family homes with an adu or 3 duplexes. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Right, so 6 units total. Each with an ADU, yeah. Not if they have. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): No, they do either two family or ADU, but you know, in terms of unit counts, exactly the same. Three single families each. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): with an ADU. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): talk. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): No, but you could now do an AVU on a plot with two headings. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Only if you use the state… if you use the state's. Gotcha. You can't use ours, right? Okay, so… But anyway, just to keep it simple, 6 units on average for those 3 acres. But if we design the OSRD with a sufficient density bonus.

Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Because you're… you want that property owner to cluster those up. Yep. Then… Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): you know, again, it's going to ultimately depend on what kind of perk they get. But basically. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Right, you might get. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Eight smaller unit buildings instead or 12 units. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Right. Right. So, so for starters, anybody. You don't have to. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): you you still can create a a cluster zone, a cluster Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): ordinance that can be used for by somebody who wants to use it beyond either building a duplex or

Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): they can either add a duplex unit or can add you. It's really half a dozen or one right? Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): It's the way we've… way we structured. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): our current. This current Osrd draft is, it refers back to underlying Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): zone right? The density of that as opposed to Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Moving beyond that and saying we want to increase the number of units, and hopefully the number of smaller units that are more affordable for folks. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And… Do… let's do away with the consideration of Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): what is currently allowed in R40R80, and look at what we think could theoretically.

Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): fit and work. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): for an actual 4 30 help. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Okay, so from a stoning standpoint, a zoning Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): and correct me if I'm wrong. Prospect. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): perspective. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): legally. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): and I'm not an expert in Minnesota in Massachusetts law. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): You're suggesting creation of a free-floating zone called the cluster. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): We need to not call it no SRD anymore. A free. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): A free zoning development type. It's a development type.

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Residential development, or small, flexible residential development. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): that then an individual property owner Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): can request, like an overlay, an overlay, can request to be put on their property, in which the underlying zoning no longer Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): is no longer… Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): That's what you're talking… I mean… I don't think you… you weren't saying overlap. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Well, but it is essentially an overlay because you're not rezoning the paper. I know, but let's not call it. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I mean, it isn't really an overlay. Truly, it's not an overlay. It is more of a… Right, it's a path that you can…

Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): It's. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): It's in the use table, so it's a… it's a. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yeah, okay, thank you. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): It's a use. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): All right, then it's not an overlay. All right, it's an option. Yeah, it's just an option. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): As a land use. Right. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Then you have the whole issue of site size density requirements. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): It's a it's a tough one, though, because you don't have the underlying zoning to help determine the density before you start adding bonuses. So you've got

Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): You know… Well, you could… Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yeah. No, no, I mean it's doable. I'm just trying to think about it. Could you still peg it to the NOM? Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Zoning. Why wouldn't you? Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): He just said not, so… Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yeah, no, I, you're saying divorce it. I'm going, I can go back. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): What I pitched early on in this process is that we pick Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): a density that folks would be comfortable with. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): and I think that if we had applied everywhere on 5,000 square foot lots downtown, then we could probably

Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): people would Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): buy a house that's on theoretically a 5,000 square foot in R. 8. Right? So if you use 5,000… Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): 5,000 square feet per unit. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): The what flat side? Well, per unit. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yeah. Yeah, Leslie. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Have the, development. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): mapped out on using those dimensional requirements as opposed to the underlying 80,000 square feet. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): or what it's what are we? 40,000 square feet now, I think.

Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): You take an 80,000 square foot, you take an you take one acre of 80,000. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): With an underlying density of 5,000, and that's 40 units. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): No. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Not for you to incorporate it into the OSRD style. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): permitting that you're where you're preserving. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): whatever percentage of land that we want to preserve, so that automatically removes that. If we stick with 50, Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Then that cuts it down to that. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I think people would lose their minds if.

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): You didn't. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Acknowledge that it was in the district that it's in. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Do you know what I mean? Just politically, people would lose their minds, and it would be very… Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Hard to explain. I feel like that's. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): That's a phrase that we use a lot of here. I think people will lose their mind. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yeah, they do. But it's a form of upzoning, though, because it allows that site, for whatever reason, because it meets certain additional requirements. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): That it's allowed at a density that nobody else is allowed.

Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): could, they could come in, but they'll look at their existing and saying, you know, I mean, it's… it's potentially problematic. I mean, I… I'm trying to… Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): trying to put it into planning concept. It is a type of upselling, but you could. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Still. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): To Sean's point, you could still, we could still make this whole formula business. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): More realistic by acknowledging in your example that. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Those 3… Lots can actually. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): support in under current zoning 6 or almost maybe 12 just well under.

Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Current zoning six, either through ADUs or, but what about. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): If there's a two family, can there be a two family plus an ADU? Well, now they're. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): There can be only because that's an added. Okay. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Six or nine wasn't to be specific. Okay. Six or nine. Oh no. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): the. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): The state allows each principal unit to have to have an AC. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So it could be 4. So it could be 12. Yeah. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Okay, so it could be 12.

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And those would be smaller unit. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yeah, but you can do that now? Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Oh, I know. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): But. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I think you're it's it's a residentially zoned property. So if there's a building, you're entitled to one protected ADU. I thought it's not per unit. It's not per unit. No. So if you have a multif family building. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): You can get one. Okay. If you have a two-family, one. Okay. It's just one protected. Okay. Yeah. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): It'll be nine. Lot. It'll be nine. Per lot with a.

Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): The residential. Yes. Okay. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So back to your example, could be- Six or nine. Six or nine. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Right. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So if we, if we somehow acknowledge that. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): in our calculation. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And maybe we don't. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Save. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): 50%, maybe we save 40% or 30% or. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Again, go back to my, you know. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): the amount of land you're saving put in that huge pile is not very much. And I get that we're not…

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Maybe the priority is not saving land, but… but… Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Well, I think the thing That would make it, Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): not make folks in the neighborhood lose their minds. It's that if you again, it's part as we're designing this. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): setbacks and Buffer zones, etc, that if… Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I'm presenting it, where, rather than Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): This again, using 3 acres rather than this 3 acre parcel being chopped up. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): into thirds, and each one has their own driver age, you know.

Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Not our 40, by the way. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): By utilizing this process, again, preserving whatever. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): amount of land, including that buffer zone, so that this single family homeowner over here on their Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): 80,000 square foot lot. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): is buffered completely from again, whatever it's 12 units that get developed. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): in this OSRD process. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Then. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): That's There shouldn't be complaints, but… because… Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): You can't see what's going on over here, but the property owner

Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): It's at least another 3 additional units. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): What else would be? Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I don't mean to be a naysayer, but that's exactly what they tried to do at Bray. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): was, and the neighbors came totally unhinged. You could not see those things, but, I mean, they came, it was 12 units on 20 acres, and they became… Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Right. But that was before… Totally unhinged. We had ADUs. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Either state or local. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So… And… Yeah. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): They did.

Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Anyway, and they were buffered, at least on the west side, was buffered by this, you know, the creek and the… and, I mean, their arguments were… Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): were totally… and I mean, they've taken it to court and right, and essentially it's never been built, right? So they did stop it. They started construction last year. Oh, they did? Yeah. Oh, great. But look how it was delayed. Five years? Six years? Oh, it was a long time. Long time. The point is, is that what you're saying makes sense to us. It does not… neighbors become unhinged. That's our job. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): to explain it well. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yeah, and to that point, I think that if we…

Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): circle back and come up with whatever plan we're gonna move forward. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): when you move it forward to the City Council, you do so with some examples that would show Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): this is what it would potentially look like. Not that these are the design standards, but these are, you know, this is what Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): This 12 unit cluster could look like versus 9 units of with a property. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Right. So it's 4:15 and I wanted to leave some time to talk about trees and Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): adjourn at quarter of 5, so that we can take a break before we go to planning board.

Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I think this is enough for me to think about this some more. Yeah. Just of some different models and different ideas. Yeah. There's other… Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): ordinances that have worked in other places, like cottage ordinances, smaller unit ordinances. I think at the end of the day, you're going to have to be grounded in some way to tell somebody, you know, and we went through that scenario of… and there's definitely examples of Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): You can't just take The perimeter of the property. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): as the denominator and divide, because you're going to end up with situations where somebody owns big chunk of wetland, and they do this calculation. And it's a you know, it's a number that's just completely

Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): But there's other things, like… Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): man, I'm unlike you earlier. I'm like, I'm not gonna say it yet! But, I mean, there's other ways to introduce Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): opportunities and options in the larger lot districts that I think would be Would be palatable, because… Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): It would. You can follow the existing development patterns without right. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Well, to that point, one of the things we've discussed Briefly, and the health encompass. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): version. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Before, unfortunately, that consultant moved on, was this… idea of, Pre-approved.

Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Building plans for multifamily. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Fun. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Right. Say 4 to 6 units that… Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): are designed to look like a single family home. That would be Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Ultimately, hopefully craft it so it's a buy right. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Bill, if you come in and say, I'm going to build this by family. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And Whether it's R40 or R80, it would be a… Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): By right process, because the city has you know, pre-existing, menu book. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): design plans.

Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And so if the property owner thinks this one, then it's a buy right use. So in terms of expanding the number of units. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): 5. The other… the other thing is, Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): If you have the area, there are… there are some… there are… there are zoning districts that allow more than one principal structure. So that's another way of going from 1 to 4. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): with very… Probably very little change. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): you know, to how it's perceived that there's a driveway right now to a single family home, and Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): You know, two facing each other, or sited somewhere else on the property.

Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): You know, that might be another… another… Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): very easy thing to do that would create an opportunity that we already hear about all the time, and it ends up at the zoning board. You know, if they are frontage limited, and they can't quite figure out how to do it. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): They are sent to our office, and we say, well, the only way to really do it is a subdivision, and they don't want to have to put in the infrastructure for a driveway that is Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Would be the same driveway that would serve it. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So that's that's another thing to be thinking about. So.

Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): things that would actually potentially work and happen in a way that's not gonna… Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): created. Ton more units are a ton more opportunity, but it could probably, in some ways, deal with Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): situations where Real things that are happening right now, where people are saying. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I have 2 adult children that have nowhere to go, and we're trying to figure out how to do it. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And then they go through this long process of, you know, variants, and… Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): special permit, and all sorts of stuff, and I don't think they typically give two principal structures on a lot. You know, they might…

Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): it's an ADU, or, you know, and that's a great new option, and that is definitely being used, and definitely in situations where Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): You want to hear it being used where there's adult, you know, elderly parents that can't manage anymore and their kids need somewhere to go. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Which is our friends, or he's has Parkinson's and his daughter and son-in-law wanna move into the ADU to take care of them. One other way to do this though, and you. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I mean, I'm just… is to identify opportunity sites. Now, they're not… there were 5, I believe, named in the

Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): housing, but those were, I think, larger scale, weren't they? I mean, they weren't mapped. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): We're still not talking about an overlay district the way we are with 40R or 40Y or whatever. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): 40Y is a potential on if you find a site, and essentially a 40Y becomes an overlay because it knocks out the underlying zoning and create, I believe, if it were… if it's the way I think it works. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And so, I mean, that still remains an option if you find a 5-acre site that just really optimal. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): For, for something like that, it could, you, you might be able to argue it, but I'm just saying it's, it's really gnarly. I think I read somewhere that you.

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): You can't have more than some percentage of your Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): overall zoning districts as 40 y residential districts like Tom, you mean 15% or 20% or something like that. So it's not. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I mean, it would be… it's a great… I think we should… It doesn't work everywhere. It doesn't work everywhere. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yeah. We should think about it. You could even find a half a dozen sites. Yeah. You could easily keep it within whatever the restriction. I think that's a, yeah, I'm just saying separate. That's another, but you brought it up. That's another Yeah, yeah, you're right. That is truly an overlay. Yeah. Because you're saying we've a designated special site, it's going to.

Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): develop under this kind of plan under the state and essentially in most ways suspends the underlying zone. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Okay, so can we agree from this discussion that that Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): For us, housing is the priority with some open space preservation, if we can make it work. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And we still need to know the carrying capacity of a property up front, like, these are the main… Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): main things. We want to incentivize small units, and we also want a calculation, still, that is appropriate for the zoning district, taking into account ADUs and two families, but also excludes wetlands and steep slopes, so that we

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): still are making something density that's appropriate to the underlying zone. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yes. Is that all sound? Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): right? And then I think we should change the name. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Like, right here, right now. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): to… to flexible residential district, or we'll think about the brand. Okay. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): But I mean, like, even… Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): even. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Going forward in our, I feel like we should call it something else. Yeah. Because we are like compact residential development, small scale residential development. I don't know. I don't want to use the word cluster. I like compact or flexible residential development.

Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): finding land. Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I would hope that. Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Whatever comes out of this, whatever combination, whatever you call it, said it produces more houses, that it's easier for developers out of town, in town developers to do. Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): One suggestion, I think, will help the math would be to… if you do have… call it a flexible cluster, OSRD. No, no cluster. I'm telling you, for simple people like myself that would come in, when they hear cluster, they know what it means. You know, OSRD, they think it's a sandwich. Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yeah. Yeah. So I think that it's,

Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): A cluster is a cluster. People know that you're putting houses here, and you have a lot of open spaces. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So, Chris. Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I don't think so. I don't think so. I think she's explained when she's been calling what it is, whether inadvertently, she's been calling it clusters. Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And, but whatever you call it, I think you get to the end and you call it what you'd like, but… Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I think one of the ownerships should be condominium or co-op. It shouldn't be individual lots, because it adds… it makes it so much more… Well, you're talking about lot lines and lots and one lot. I think everything is… all of the open space is in a… is in a HOA, and each individual lot

Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): each individual home has its usable space on the outside. I think Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): That way it keeps the calculations of one ADU. I mean, it just keeps the calculation simple for some, again, people like me. Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And, and I also think that it's, Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): You take what's on the books now and change it drastically, but… Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Would you use the one that's worked? Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): the the cluster. Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): What are the, I mean, what would be the three major things that you don't like about the cluster besides the name?

Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): What are the things that you don't like? Three major things. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I think it's aesthetically ridiculous. What do you mean? Like, it's just to… the requirement that you have to put single-family homes, like. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I don't know. I just… That's a great question. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): It's It, it… it only achieves… Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): sort of open space in a in a ring in a ring around each cluster, and it takes advantage of Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): of… site issues that aren't meant to be taken advantage of. Well, I think, I think it's.

Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Special permit that I mean that can be part I think that making taking the clusters on the the I don't like traditional subdivisions I think they're. Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): They're a mess. I never wanted to live on one. And but I'm just saying, if I would take I would take time at the next meeting and look at the cluster zone and take the best things that you've come up with in the last six or eight months. Yeah. And change that. Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I think passing this is going to be a huge thing, but if we could take the cluster and pick all the good things out from the Compass Plan, from the OSRD, and put it in there and change the cluster.

Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): You're not doing something new, you're making something a lot better. And it might be a name change, but I think you got to stick with something that people understand. Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): and then and then, and change it to make it better. 3 acres. Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): As a minimum, no one's ever done that. So, but I think if you put it to 5 acres, I think you want people to be creative. People come in and say, I want to build 4 units in this one little corner and keep 80% Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): open space. You want to keep it up to the creative people that are going to come in and develop these things. And believe me, I'd rather build on a small little amount than putting it in sprawling houses.

Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): far away from each other. It's the costs… utility costs are a lot less. And I think that it's, you know, again, I would just take what's been working and make it much better, and call it something different. Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): But I think it's… I think you gotta just keep it simple. Condominium or co-op ownership. Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And I think that it's you just want to get more housing here. It's it's. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): We totally agree. Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I think that's all. That's all. I can't help myself. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Thank you, Chris.

Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Okay. What was the zone, I mean the zoning chapter that. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): My, my place came in, West… West Festival. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): It has all those features, all those features. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): That you just talked about. Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Okay. I think it needs to be made, I mean, it needs to be made better because of the housing shortage that's here, and I think… Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): We don't need, you know, instead of 10 single family homes, you know, in big squares, it's still not doing enough where you just have 10 single family homes like this, right? Or even two family.

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Because you're still getting four bedroom homes. Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Because in the slow, yeah, well, the slower that these things, the production doesn't come out, it's, I'll look at a piece of land and I'll say, I'm just gonna put three estate lots, two estate lots and sell each one for this amount. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): That's what we have to stop right there. Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Again, I started by building starter homes and retirement homes, and I've gotten dragged to the dark side over Coffins Beach. But I mean, I think that's what happens when you make it very, very difficult, offer the incentives for developers to take a risk.

Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): But I think… I think you take what's on the books and make it a lot better with Speaker 5 (City Hall - Council Chambers): What you're talking about the last year, I think. Thank you. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): We've got to move on to the next agenda item. Thank you, though, Chase. Appreciate it. Thank you. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Okay. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Trees. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I forget what it's called on the agenda. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): But. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): They call the tree preservation or protection by regulation or ordinance. Yes.

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So, did I send you guys this treatment? Tree references? Yeah, I did. Yeah. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Is that in the today's email? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): the. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought you were talking about links or references. No, it's just… Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Just a list of where trees show up and the minutes, if I put them down, we had some really good ideas. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I was like, did we just lose the meeting? No. So… Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Categorizing tree sizes by diameter rather than caliper, updating the list of acceptable street trees, including a reference to DCR that

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Brendan Ash, with the recommended list of trees might change over time. The recommendation for diversity and tree planting. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And then I don't know if we can get ourselves to make a tree committee, but maybe that would be helpful. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And then this idea of setback trees. And I had a conversation with Pratap. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Petros, who is, a city planner in Boston. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And he's the guy that does 100 trees. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And he said… Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): he said that, this is what he said. He said, setback trees are worth saving if they're at least 2 feet in circumference. Otherwise, let the trees go and require significant planting with a diversity of trees, not less than 2 inches in caliber. I wrote that down right.

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Thanks. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Saving trees is really hard and expensive. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And planting trees. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): It's better. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Especially for contractors who are trying to get in and out of a lot. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So, protect… outside, you know. Protect the trees as much as you can. But Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Would jump overboard on it really was his. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): major idea. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So… Does anyone have any thoughts on that, or…

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): The other ideas that we had. What's the difference between circumference and VD? Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Maybe H is a measure. Well, there's caliper. Diana breast. Yeah. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): That's just from this side of the tree versus. Right, at four feet, but. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): circumference versus diameter. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yeah, that was an interesting, I haven't really… Yeah, I just don't understand. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): What is caliper? Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Calipari. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Hooper is also kind of like DBH, but it's DBH is, they're small.

Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): trees. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Oh, yeah. Sewage cow. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yeah. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yeah, but the point is, it's taken at breast height, it's taken at a standard height from the street. Yeah. And it's a circumference, right? Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): It's not a diameter, it's a cycamplex, isn't it? Two inch. I think I thought cal. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Clara Woods. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): It's basically the… Oh, maybe it is a Diane. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Okay, thank you. But it's taken at… Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): It's taken at breast height, that's what's the BH, but it's essentially 4 feet off. It's the standardized, so that every tree is measured in the same.

Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So I don't understand. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Why we would adopt a standard that's not GPH when everybody else uses it, but… Oh, my! Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Anyway, I just think we can do better. So where are we? Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): We left off, we already had a draft for the… Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): tree ordinance. But we also talked about how that's just For city operations. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yeah. So… so I think there's… there's already… been policy practice of not planting trees that are already… but we did have that kind of ready to go. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yeah, and that updated the.

Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): the. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): reference. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): to the DCR. Okay. I don't have that, do I? Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): It's probably in our folder of… studies and. Yeah. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I have other people's things. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Anyway, I think we can do better with the site plan review specifically, and the subdivision rules and regs also. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): as, like, easy… Things that we could. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): because that's just planning board stuff, right? That's not even city council.

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): If… Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So I believe the site plan has. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): has language in it that talks about the work and adopt. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Regulations. Yeah. So that would be just a… Yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And the regulations we ought to adopt are how many shade trees there ought to be in a parking lot per parking space. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Like. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yeah, complicated by the fact that Snow removal. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): But still, like we could have done a way better job in Gloucester Crossing is all I mean. Oh God. Every time I go in there, I think that. Absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): and we can do a better job in in subdivision rules and regs, and to just you know. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): not giving out waivers for tree removal and making sure the trees of certain dimension are preserved, and Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And things like that. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Or that you have to have a permit process to bring it down to show that you have to because it's diseased or a safety hazard or dead, dead, diseased or safe hazard. And those standards can be pretty. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): There's a lot of room for what tree is more savaging. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): It has to have a caliper of a minimal caliper.

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yes. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So, any other thoughts? Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): On that. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): What we can do to be… to be effective. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): The other thing a citywide thing could be is to look for. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Grants to plant trees too, which is a, you know, more proactive than not. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Regulatory. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): to plant, to plant trees. So. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yeah, that's not my job. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So, Greg, if we could get a draft.

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): For our next subdivision meeting. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): which is Well. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): That's the next topic. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I found it hard. I'm sure you guys did too. Meet every Thursday. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I think we could regularly meet every time there's a planning board meeting. I personally feel like that's Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): better for my day, because once I'm doing planning board stuff, I might as well be all in and doing planning board stuff. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And then, you know, to the extent that 40R comes up with Washington Street or some other things that are in the

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): pipeline. We can add meetings if we feel like we need to. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Because also, this is a lot of work for Gregg, and as all that stuff comes up, that's a lot of work for Gregg. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Well, and I think if we do get to that, we'll probably want to be focused on that as well. Yeah, of its own meeting or maybe that. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Keep it… keep it to the meeting date, you know, when we… so you're kind of doubled up a little bit, like you said, and then maybe once a month. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): We'll add one extra meeting if it's… Sure. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): We've got something focused on and also to, are we talking about room?

Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Okay. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): No, I mean, just, I mean, the Compass plan had, you know, the several sites. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yeah. Right. Right. Right. And I I didn't know where some of them were because it was in the math. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): the The Shaws Plaza, I think, is still Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): under negotiation and discussion. I'm just waiting for that to move along in its own pace. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): We can't do anything about it until… Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): an owner who wants to build something wants to build something.

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): But I do know that the — is it 272 Washington? Yeah. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Right, right. And the 40 are there. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): What's there? Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): An indication that there may be an application. Restaurant. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): West Home. Oh, oh, oh, oh. I know the one. Yeah. Yeah. On the way to the hospital. Kind of near Grant Service. Same sign. Yeah. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Yeah, yeah, the Redbird. Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So that might take some time. So. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I feel like we should meet at 3 instead of 3.30. I know it makes a really long meeting time, but I sort of feel like to get something really done, we seem to need 2 hours, or at least an hour and 45 minutes.

Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): That's fine with me, because I'm retired, it might be a… Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I'm basically retired. How are you? Congratulations. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I try not to work. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Are you traveling? Are you going to California? Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): that back in California. My sister passed away last year. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Sorry, Sean. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): the second curve out there. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Still dealing with her. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Sorry. Yeah. But didn't you.

Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): rehab your parents house so the 2 sisters could live in? Was it essentially a duplex? Yeah, essentially a duplex. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): knee surgery in early August. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Did she throw an empty nap? Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Oh, really? How old was she? Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): itself. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): If you want to. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Oh, yeah, sorry. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I don't know them. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): to have the minutes recorded on this. So why don't we say we'll meet again on the 15th.

Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): That's our next meeting. Great. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Okay. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): But what are we going to do? Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): The meeting? The meeting is what? I'm sorry, the 15th? The 15th. I'm in Scotland, so… and David is still gone. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Is he? How do we know he's gone? Do we know he's gone? He is gone. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): 15th, he did let me know that. Okay. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): John, all this much to say. Yeah, I think. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And then he gets back later in the month.

Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Three weeks he's gone. Well, and I'm leaving for two on the 10th and I'm not back till the 22nd. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Okay. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Sorry. But yeah, do you want to zoom in or. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): I'm in Scotland. No, don't. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Sorry, sorry, I didn't hear where you said you were going. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Sometimes I'll be in the middle of the night, but no, no, I haven't. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): To meet, to see if, Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): with Alex and Gregg and like, go through the housing compass to try to

Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Sure. If there's a picking list. Speaker 2 (City Hall - Council Chambers): we can… What… Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So you said you're gone the 15th? No, I'll be here. Oh, you'll be here. Yeah, and I'll be here. Oh, okay. That's a quorum. Yeah. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Oh, that's fine, I'm sorry, I thought… Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): We could do that then. That might make sense. Yeah. Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): you know, not that we're completely parking this, but it also is a big pivot, so… Yes, it is a big pivot. It might make sense to also think about that in terms of the context and prioritize a little bit. Yeah. So that'd be good for us, 15. But also, if you could…

Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Let's save a little bit of time also on the 15th for trees because we can. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): We can resurrect the draft that you have, and… Sure. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): We have a I'm sorry I didn't realize we had had a quorum. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): And I might, two of three might, two of three might the operative verb being might subjunctive being might. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): like, pour through… site plan review and subdivision rules and regs, and see if I can just… Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Highlight some places where we can. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): For the trees. Add some more trees. Yeah. Oh, that would be…

Speaker 3 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Okay, so let's keep that on, as well as I'll see if, Alex is available. Okay. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Okay. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): So. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): motion to adjourn motion to adjourn. I'll make that move. I second. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): All in favor. Aye. Speaker 1 (City Hall - Council Chambers): Very good. Thank you. And for all. Speaker 4 (City Hall - Council Chambers): This is productive. Thank you.