Rockport Historical Commission, Oct. 1, 2026

Um, recording started. Waiting room is in. All right. Okay. All right. Um, good afternoon and welcome to the October 1st, 2026 meeting of the Rockport Historical Commission. I'm Kate Johns, chair of the commission, and I'm calling the meeting to order at 4pm. First we'll have a roll call. Laura Stevens. Kerry O'Donnell. Here. Ralph San Antonio. Paul Woodbury. Here. And myself is here.

And the existing windows are 30 years old. And as I said, in not great shape, various states of functionality. So my, my request is to replace the windows. And I received a quotation from building center of Gloucester. And when I read over the, the application for certification. It seems to me that because they're not on the primary sides of the house that one of the two possibilities could be. I see interested in making sure that I understand the policy correctly could be either Anderson 400 series of modern elevate double home.

So I chose Anderson to get the quote from. And that's what I've submitted. And I'm happy to hear from you all to understand if there's more that I need to be aware of them. And if you have further questions, happy to answer them. All right. Thank you. Sure. Yeah, I was. We do have Anderson 400 series windows in our list of windows that may be approved on, you know, secondary facades, which yours are. The only thing though that I'm a little confused about is your letter. Describe them as full frame. And that's what we have in our list of possible approved windows for secondary elevations.

But the quote from Anderson says insert window. So that's, I don't know if you know that is confusing. Yeah, I'll just explain the differences. So the full frame replacement window, the old window is taken out all the way back to the rough opening and the new window goes in. And so that means that the size of the sash, the part that goes up and down is exactly the same size as your original window, which is our goal. Whereas if you have an insert window, it actually has its own second frame that goes within the existing frame. And so it reduces the size of the sash, which we think we don't.

Correct. Yeah. So I think that would be the question, you know, to ask the building center, because I'm pretty sure all the research that I've done on Anderson 400 series windows, they do make a full frame replacement window. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I think that's that Kate. Oh, yeah, Windows specs are so beat. Laura, you had a question. I had a question too, which was the paint configuration when I was looking at it, it looked like it was a one over one configuration, and it was hard for me. Tell from the photos what the current configuration is. Is it one over one? It looked like it might have been two over one.

So, um, this is all new to me. I'm sorry. Help me understand what one over one is. One would be, if it's a double hung window, so with a one over one would be a single pane of glass over a single pane of glass. Yes. If it was a two over one, it would be two panes of glass over a single pane of glass. With a divider, vertical divider down the middle of the glass. If it was a two over two, the window would look like it was divided by four. I see. What have you, what have you currently got? She's got one over one. Not over one. Yeah, she does have one. Yeah, it's hard to tell. I don't know. I hope I sent everyone the, when she sent us a copy of a photo of the interior of the window and it was easier to say, I'm sorry, I didn't pass that along. I apologize.

Yeah, it's a little easy. Yeah, it's one over one because one of the photos that I sent you shows the dysfunction. So, um, yeah, so it's just one over one. Okay, thanks. Sure. Thank you for the question. Yeah, it looks like the earlier windows that you can see on the front were two over two, which, you know, I don't know if you can find out about the, you know, make sure it's the full frame replacement, not the insert. And then, you know, you don't have to put two over two, but if you'd like it to look more historical, you know, we'd be happy with that. Okay, I'm happy to do this follow up. That would be great. That would be great.

Getting an education on windows. I can see that you need new windows for sure. Yes, yes, thank you. I'm grateful that you can see that. Yeah, yeah. And they don't look like original windows at all. As you gave us the information, they have a vinyl jam liner, you know, and they are wood but the the wood right Anderson are wood and they're coated in a flexicron finish. So it's almost like they're painted wood. Yeah. Any other questions or thoughts on this? Okay, when, when you said, like, two over two, you meant full divided light, right? No, they can be simulated divided light. That's something that simulated. Yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't use the word.

Simulated divided light. Right. But not a grill. That's the distinction I was making. Yeah, that would be something if on that's important for you to tell them that if you're going to do two over two, then the dividing bar the mountain bar is down the middle vertical should be what they call a simulated divided light. And, you know what they I think they make a one inch or seven eighths of an inch wide. It's for what. Doesn't matter. Seven eighth or one is fine. And with Okay. Yeah. And it should have a space or bar.

Okay. Dark color, space or bar. Okay. Anything else. No, it's not. I mean, they have they mentioned in the series, the 400 series that they have two different types of bars, one that's, I guess a solid bar, and one that's sort of insulated it. So, so it makes it more thermally efficient. I mean, from our perspective, it, it wouldn't matter as long as it's a full divided light. Well, a simulated divided divided. Full simulated divided light as opposed to a grill that they are they also have, like, it's, it seemed like they had a grill that was removable on the inside, and a permanent one on the outside, but without a space bar at all.

Oh, yeah, that's what I was trying to distinguish. Both sides. So it's, it means it's these, the, the mutton bars are permanently affixed to the glass, they don't move through the glass, but they're permanently affixed that they're not like the ones that, you know, fall out and yeah, yeah, they're solid. All right, so, um, do you does everyone think we need a public hearing on this. I mean, it's sort of like for like pretty close to like for like the existing windows are wood. These are wood, you know, they're painted wood.

What does everybody think. Nothing would you do like for like, and if you've been wanting to do the two over two that's actually an improvement, which we also like right. Yeah, I'm happy to do that. Yeah. Okay, so then we could do you think we could issue a certificate of non applicability with the condition that it is a full frame replacement. Anderson would write window with with the simulated divided lights and all that we talked about. Do you think that'd be proper. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So that's good. All right, may I have a motion to issue a certificate of non applicability with those conditions.

If someone could put that into words. I can. Okay. So good. We approve the application as a certificate of non applicability, considering this like for like replacement with the stipulation of the windows be full frame replacements, not inserts. Yeah. And then they have simulated divided lights. And then they have simulated divided lights, were it to be a two over two configuration. Yeah. Is there a second to that. All in favor, Carrie.

Laura. Ralph. Thank you so much. I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful for myself. I, so that is approved. And if you could get us that information from your supplier. Certifying that that is that it will meet those requirements. We will get you out a certificate of non applicability and then you're free to go ahead with the construction. And I'm also grateful for just your, you know, your alertness to make sure that we preserve the beauty of Rockport. So thank you. Thank you. That's nice of you. Yeah, thank you. Enjoy your evening. You too. Thank you. Bye bye.

All right. So our second, what I thought was going to be an application we did not receive another application from 48 Broadway. The garden shed, because they emailed me and said they're going to go ahead with the project as approved with the two wood windows. So, um, no new application is needed it was approved that way and that's the way they said they're going to go ahead with it. And that is nothing needed on that tonight. So, that is it on our projects and then we just have a number of things to discuss current and new commission business. So just going through the list here.

We have updates on historical markers and CPC application. As everybody knows we got the $30,000 that we asked for from the CPC for the markers. We sent in information to Rob and to Aaron on what is needed to go ahead with the project and Aaron said he's just waiting to hear from Rob and maybe Rob could. You can jump in and tell us where the request for proposals is on the CPC markers.

Yeah, so I think we have a good draft of that. It's pretty much ready to go. I'll confirm that I know Paul you provided comments back to me prior to the time meeting that have been integrated, so I'll double check on that. I'll double check with accounting to see if they've set up the accounts for it, because we tend to like to coordinate an account number to a signed proposal once we do get those proposals back. So, I'll double check on those when I'm back in the office next week, and that'll probably have us all set also checking with Aaron to confirm that. He doesn't really need to wait on anything from me to confirm that they are able to supply the labor associated because we want to make sure that they're all squared away.

So, all of that can be early to mid next week conversation between myself, Aaron, and accounting, and I'll send an email to the group letting folks know and update, probably by the end of next week. Rob, what is Aaron's last name? Chiluko. C-I-L-L-U-F-F-O. C-I-L-L-U-F, what? F-O. Got it. Thank you.

Looks like we lost Kate. Carrie, could you, while she's coming back, just take over working through the agenda? Sure. Although, I know Kate's got all the info. This is the, the next thing is the SKELE preservation services update, which is apparently money has been found from our little trust fund there, and we have enough money to pay the fee for this service. I don't know when Kate wants to go ahead with that, but it's nice to know that the money is there to retain the speaker.

I also spoke to Kate today, and we have enough money in the budget so we don't even have to use the trust. That's lovely. I thought we were only budgeted $200. Yeah, that was a mistake. Okay, great. The next item is the application form additions that I think you were working on, Paul. A long time ago, I haven't made any progress on it. I'll come back to that. We got sort of bogged down because of the, you can't publish emails and so we asked Mitch if we could put something on the application. I don't think we've heard back from him yet so

I also think that Kate was going to bring up a letter sent to the blacksmith shop 2123 Mount Pleasant for non compliance. I haven't seen that. I think we'd all be interested to see that. I don't know also if they, it has, if there's been any response. We sent out four letters. Four letters. One letter and three emails I think is what she said. He's all for 23 Mount Pleasant Paul or just the one. I don't know what the four were. Okay, specifically.

But I'm assuming it included the blacksmith shop. I don't know if they sent out a letter of support. For the preservation of old Harbor, as it is now. Now we haven't sent out the letter. Okay. We, we voted to send out the letter. Yes. And the demolition permit for Kachopolis. I don't know. If the town is indeed going to hire an engineer or if they're just going to go ahead and issue a certificate of demolition. Without going through the historic commission. This is a big deal. Should we be trying to call Kate because she could.

She can come on by phone. That'd be great. Let me go. Okay. I'm going to view on that. And. He said there's been no permit issued yet. And they are going to do a. Engineering report to see if it needs to be torn down. But he reiterated that if he believes it's unsafe. He will issue one without our. It is back. Can you hear us? Can you hear me? Hi. Oh, can you see me? No. At least you can hear me. Okay. Thank you.

You should be able to enable your video now. Okay. Yes. Okay. Now where's everybody else? Hello everybody. Where are you? Oh, you can't see us. All right. Okay. Frozen now. Yeah. Oh boy. Can you hear me? Your video. I want to just leave your video out. I don't know what's going on here. Can you hear me? Anybody? Yeah. All right. Now you're moving. Okay. You're moving. All right. I see it. Ralph. He's the only one. Hi, Ralph. Okay. So what did I miss?

I don't know. I don't know how much on the new business. Okay. But we needed you. So. Okay. All right. So we have the, we talked about the historical markers. We're good on that. On the. Skelly preservation services. I talked with. Mitch. And I have good information on our trust fund. It is actually there. And we just need to write a letter to the select board and have them. Okay. You know, whatever we want to take out for consultants or whatever. But the other good news is that we actually have $1,100 in our budget from the town this year. And we can use that for the consultant.

So I just found that out. So I'll go ahead then with Chris Skelly and proceed. I didn't want to proceed until we had the money. So I think we're going to have slight boards approval. If we use budget funds. I don't think so. But I'll check with Mitch. They approved the budget. So they approved the budget. We're not going over the budget. Yeah. So I think it should be fine. Okay. And then application form. Not additions, but we did. I also talked to Mitch about the redactions issue. And he said. That we do need to post redacted. Applications on the website, but we can have unredacted ones on our own.

Website. So I don't really understand that. Paul. Okay. He said, come in and Rob. We'll help us. That sound good. Rob. Sure. Okay. I was in the office today. So my guess is this is the language. Would have mentioned to me. I'm going to stick it out today. Unfortunately. So, but yeah, that seems reasonable. We had had some great conversations. I think it was really interesting. So I think it was really interesting. I think we did have a great conversation. But yeah, that seems reasonable. We had had some preliminary discussions around the office about. Slightly changing the commission's application. So that all contact information is on a cover sheet and then anything.

Related directly to the application itself is on subsequent sheets. So that you could simply not include that cover sheet, which includes the contact info in what's uploaded. Obviously that doesn't have previous applications. So we can work with that. And I know that other committees have integrated some, some software solutions that it has provided for redaction work. But yeah, certainly come by and we can figure out what the plan is, both for future applications as well as for the ones, the previous ones that you'd like to have up. I think as far as targeting goes, it's really more so those that are either currently pending before you have recently been pending before you, you know, I don't think we're looking to, to go back years and years.

Yeah. That's what Mitch said. Yeah. He said it was really just going forward, but I just want to make sure that we can access the contact information because we do contact them, you know, through the years. So we do need to have that somewhere where at least the commission can access it. Yeah. I believe currently the Google drive that you guys have set up as wide open, essentially, if you have the link, you can access it. So just be adjusting the permissions associated with a subset of that drive to have the fully unredacted copies of the applications so that the commission can access them.

Okay. Maybe you'll give lessons and how to access that. Yeah, we can, we can work on that together for sure. Okay. All right. So Paul, does that. Who's going to redact it? Well, it's the idea, I guess, is not redacting, but to change our application. So the personal information is on a cover sheet. So then all you do is upload the rest of the application without the personal information, but then upload the cover sheet to our Google drive. So we can see that information. Is that right? Yep. Okay. Does that make sense, Paul? Well, you know, it's not really the issue wasn't redacting the

application. It was the 10 emails they send in after that with their email address on it and their phone numbers and these conversations that we maintain with all the updated specs and all that stuff. Yeah. That's what became very hard. And we always put that stuff in the application folder. Yeah. So that's something. Yeah. That's also an application material that gets integrated in the decision. I'll talk to it about and see what they have for, because those, those emails typically take a standard form where there's a block at the top that says who it's from, who it's to date, time, all of that type stuff that that should be able to be done in a, either an automatic or send the automatic fashion.

So I'll have that discussion with the IT. Okay. All right. Great. Thank you. Okay. All right. I yeah. So the blacksmith shop. I was told informally. By Ellen that is Steli that the, um, the project has run out of money. So I don't really know what that means, but I'm just keeping you informed on that. Um, Yeah. Not quite sure. You know,

I have one of the violation letters you sent out. No, no, no, we didn't have that on the list because. No, I sent them a letter. Yes. No, I sent them a letter a while ago. Yeah. That wasn't one of the recent ones. Okay. Yeah. So anyway, um, yeah. I don't know. What to do about that except. Wait and see what's happening with the. With the project in general, um, I don't know. And, you know, maybe. You know, in this case, go ahead and, and.

Send that real. Strict violation letter. With the penalties. So odd. They just posted this cheery little. Amy Hill and Rockport stuffer. One of the, one of the sites. Yeah. Everything's great. Yeah. Come on in. Yeah. Maybe he's wrong. You know, Hopefully. But they would have had to have changed contractors for him to be wrong. Right. So just in general question is, okay, even if this, if this property weren't in a historic district. It's a commercial business. If they've run out of money and nothing's happening. Does. And a building permits been issued. What does the town do anything at

all? I don't know. That's a good question. That's a good question. No. Well, a project like that can. Hang around for years. As long as they do one thing. To improve it. They go in and nail one, two by four. It'll extend for another year. Okay. I would think that would be the ones. That are the serious letter with the law and the.

Penalties and all that, not just the letters, trying to work it out. The preliminary letters trying to work it out, which is what I've sent out so far. Okay. To, you know, now four different people. And. The church wrote right back. They got us an application. So that will be at our next. Public hearing. And. This sounded like a good idea to maybe. I don't know. But. For the church. For that public, you know, like.

So we'll bypass the initial review there. Why? It's already up. But notify the betters, make it a public hearing. And, you know, Go from there. Okay. And then we'll wait. And. I would say just wait a little while on the blacksmith shop, see if something changes. Unless somebody has a. Better idea. No. Okay. All right. Old harbor letter of support. So. That letter.

Permit issue. I spoke with Mitch and I spoke with Paul Orlando today. And. He is a Paul Orlando is going to talk to the. Owner or their insurance company. About and tell them that we would really like them to start the application process with us. So that. Documentation of existing conditions can begin before. Any possible demolition or renovation. He told me that the owner had not decided yet whether. They want to ask for a demolition or a renovation. So.

I Paul is of course, very concerned about. You know, safety issues and feels that the building is in very bad shape. And I said that. And I said that I would help him find a. A provider that will measure the drawings and come up with. I'm sorry. Measure the exterior of the building and come up with existing conditions drawings. For the. Owner to present to us in the application. That can use drones and other. Other hands free.

Ways of measuring the building, which. That technology has been out there for a long time photogrammetry. And now they have added other things to it. It's called lie door and various things. So. I'm in contact with one. That isn't it's an Arlington mass and. Got a very high review. So we'll see where that goes. And. Yeah. So, yeah, I think there's, there's a chance that. We will get the building documented so that whichever way. They decide to go forward. We can keep the building as substantially. Similar to the existing historic building.

So I'm hopeful on that. All right. The. Dark sky light fixtures. I emailed the images to the commission. Did everyone have a chance to look at them? Is everybody. Oh, okay. Okay. When people talk, I can see them. Otherwise it's a completely black screen. So. Forgive me. I'm not meaning to ignore anybody if they've got their hand up. Just talk. I'll see you. I see you, Laura. So anyway, I, I hope people.

Took a look at those photographs that Christine Downing and Tom Mika sent us. They're actually here. We should unmute them, huh? Okay. Yeah, I can't see them. But yeah. Christine and Tom. Hi. Hi. Hi, Tom. I can see you. I can't see Christine, but anyway. Oh, there you are. Okay. Good. Yeah. So anyway, as I was saying, I sent the images to everybody. And I was going to suggest that we put the images in a folder on our website. As suggestions for dark sky.

And historically. Possibly historically appropriate. Fixtures. What does everyone in the commission think about that? Yep. That's fine. I think. Is there some way of getting. Either. Like specifications that would make any. Would indicate whether any. Potential light fixture. Which qualified to be. Certifiable under dark skies. Rather than. You know, someone coming out and making the assertion that it qualifies. I mean, where are those criteria? They're in our bylaws. Dark skies criteria.

Is that correct? Yeah. The dark sky has some specifications. Yes. It's in the dark. In the bylaw. Yeah. Where is it? I'm sorry. In the bylaw in the town bylaw. Rockport town bylaw. Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah. So in terms of what's the spec would be, what would be okay. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think. I think what Rob was saying was that. At town meeting. Was that. It's hard to find a light fixture that will meet all the. Specific official criteria. Like every single one.

But you can check off a lot of them. And you can alter like the one that we have approved for the town bylaw. And. Can meet. A lot of the qualifications in terms of not spreading light up. And using the. Right. Temperature. Bulb and et cetera. So, and that this, I would imagine that's the same with most of these fixtures that Christine sent that look, you know, All of them look very nice and. Yeah. I don't know. Christine and Tom, do you think they meet every. Criteria. I picked that up. Pardon me.

There are specs. When I looked at the catalogs there, if you sort of dig into them, you get interested in a particular. Light fixture. There are specs that you can find. I mean, I didn't look at all of them. I looked at a few. Yeah. Excuse me. I did check with about the. Light that's been approved for the town hall. And the vendor, which is. What are they called? Brass light something I think. So they went back and said that the. It could be adapted with brass panels that are. And that that would adapt it to a dark skies.

But. I didn't ask for it. They respond, but I didn't go farther into it to ask, what would this look like? How big are the panels, et cetera? But what we're aiming for is something that doesn't spread the light above or doesn't spread light horizontally, but. Actually aims it. That. Okay. Thank you. Go ahead, Christine. Something happened there. I don't know. Yeah. Could you hear me? No. Oh no. Well, I couldn't, I couldn't hear so. Yeah.

You couldn't hear. Okay. I'll try again. Can you hear me now? Kate? No, you can't. Okay. Yeah. Just quickly. I contacted the vendor for the light for town hall. And he said that they, that it could be adapted with brass panels that are made to be the color of the fixture. Yeah. I think Rob had looked into that and that sounds like. That's what they're going to do. But to address whether there are our fixtures. That there are fixtures that are no fixtures are available there. Yeah. I mean, not, not specifically for town hall, but. The list of ones, the photos you sent us. Look good. And we're going to definitely put those on our. Yeah.

Website for people to refer to. So. There. I think that this is going to get, it'll get easier over time. And that there'll be more, there'll be more fixtures available because I found. There'll be more fixtures available in their catalogs. Yeah. Also the vendor for the one for town hall. Oh, pardon me. It wasn't that one. Anyway, another one that I contacted said that most of their fixtures could be adapted. Yeah. Most of them. Yeah. So that's, you know, being aware of it and being able to help people. Find their way to it. Yeah. It's really something that that would be really huge help. Yeah.

I think that would be a very good idea. I don't think we need to vote on that. Do you, anybody in the. Commission. Are we suggesting that we're going to put our guideline update out? Guidelines to require. Dark sky. No, I, I think what. What Rob and Mitch have said is maybe we could update our guidelines. To just point out that to meet the, the town. Bylaw on Darcy at sky lighting. They should, you know, look into the. What is required for that. Well, we're still going to approve. A light fixture that does not conform to dark sky, but is historically correct. Yeah.

That's my interpretation. But, you know, we can get, we can ask. Town council about that. Well, if it's. It's only 20% of the time. If it's that, so. We can certainly advise applicants that they're required to follow dark sky. Regulations. But just like in other things where, where we're not zoning and we're not planning. We can only do what we can do, but we can certainly say, Hey. Understand this isn't, this isn't the only requirement you're going to need to meet. Yeah, Laura, that's exactly right. I think that's what. The way to approach it. And I think that's what we're going to do.

And I think that's what. The way to approach it. And Tom has his hand up. Okay. Tom. Yeah. I appreciate your attention to this. And. Actually the enforcement for the residential dark sky. And by-law is with the building inspector. Technically he should not issue a building permit unless all the fixtures comply. But back on the town hall fixture. I did send you an image from the same vendor. That rabbit Robert identified that looks like it is dark sky compliant. If you put the clear glass in it.

I'm a little bit leery about the solution of putting dark sky light bulbs in because you know, the first time a bulb burns out, you go to the stock room and you put one that doesn't comply. I think. Just to speak to that briefly. Tom, you should bring those comments to the select board, not to the store commission because the applications already been improved and processed to this point. So the, any decisions as far as, and they don't have direct jurisdiction over the lights themselves that go in the fixtures. But the select board is considering the actual lights installed amongst other things, paint color and things of that sort. In an, in a meeting coming up soon. We haven't picked a definitive date for that.

And an email from Melanie. Well back. Yeah. I mean, I missed it. If it didn't, it wasn't in the, I searched around, but I searched in the subject. Yeah. Cause I also, I, as I usually do, since. Town clerk is not putting the address on the header anymore. I sent it to you and ask you if you could possibly put the, you know, we send it to everybody with the address in the header. Yeah. I did it on a few, but I just, I didn't get that one. Okay. So the email came out on the 25th of September. From Melanie. Yeah. I had to search for it today. Okay. All right. Why didn't delete it? So I'm sure I can find it.

Well, I can resend it. No problem. Okay. We'll do that. All right. Let's see if there's anything else. Oh, let's go. Oh, I know. Yeah. Okay. The other thing is.

The town has offered us a. Session with town council. Like about an hour session by zoom. So we can just ask our specific questions. You know, for historical. We can just. Try to get three dates in the near future. That would work for all of us. For him to set up a meeting with town council for us separate from our regular meeting. Which the next one is the 24th. Is it the 24th of 22nd of October? Yeah. So if everybody could get back to me with.

I'll try to put that together. Um, you know, and then we'll, um, I'll, I'll be working to, to get Chris Skelly here too. So we'll be all. Informed. Well, all right. Anything else to discuss? No, are we ready to adjourn? All right. Okay. May I have a motion to adjourn? Move to adjourn. Is there a second? All right. All in favor. Carrie. Hi. Laura. Hey. Um, Ralph. All right. And myself. I, we are adjourned. Thank you everybody. See you in a couple of weeks.